Toby Sims - League Two Life With Harrogate Town, Pittsburgh Riverhounds, and His Return to America At Greenville - E28

This week on The Back Stick Podcast, it’s just Dom in the studio with Jamil on work duties! Dom sits down solo with Greenville Triumph defender Toby Sims, a versatile full-back with an incredible story that spans across the English Football League with Harrogate Town and the USL with Pittsburgh Riverhounds and now Greenville Triumph.

From growing up in England to carving out a path through college soccer in the USA, Toby gives us an honest and in-depth look at the highs and lows of making it in professional football. We delve into his time at Pittsburgh Riverhounds, the surprise move to Harrogate Town in League Two, and why he made the personal decision to return stateside.

We also discuss the challenges of the EFL, his memorable moments playing League Two football, famous FA Cup ties away at Leeds United, and how he’s settling into life with Greenville Triumph. For aspiring players, fans of USL and EFL, and anyone curious about football careers beyond the Premier League, this episode is full of insight, laughs, and valuable life lessons.

Don't miss this candid chat with one of USL League One’s rising leaders!

00:00 Intro & Welcome Toby Sims!

01:28 Early Life and Football Beginnings

04:41 Transition to College Soccer

10:47 College Career Highlights and Challenges

14:41 Becoming a Professional Footballer

20:14 Rookie Season at Pittsburgh Riverhounds

30:13 The Transfer to Harrogate Town

36:44 Taking His Chance In The EFL

43:02 Memorable League Two Moments

49:13 Returning to the US: A Personal Decision

54:33 Future Aspirations and Coaching Opportunities

56:58 Extra Time

Subscribe - https://www.youtube.com/@TheBackStickPod

For more of The Back Stick Podcast! - linktr.ee/thebackstickpod

@TheBackStickPod - On All Socials

Transcript

Dom Okus (00:00)
Hello everyone and welcome to the Backstik podcast. Now you've noticed it's just me today. The boy Jamar is very busy. He's been flying across the US, meeting with clients and stuff. So we're not going to see him today, but I've been able to pull in the cavalry today. I've got my boy Toby Sims here, just moved back to the US now at Greenville, fresh from playing the season at Harrogate. Welcome to the Backstik pod, my boy. How you doing?

Toby (00:29)
Thanks for having me bro, I'm good, I'm excited to have a catch up with you and be on air with you, so ⁓ thanks for having me.

Dom Okus (00:37)
Yeah, of course man, of course, of course. And obviously we're just catching up off air. Obviously we haven't caught up like this face to face in a while, but we always stay in contact, messages on Instagram, Snap, whatever it is. So, that's good to see you man. And honestly bro, I just wanna start off by saying I'm proud of you man. Like you've definitely come a long way from those days we were playing together in the PDL, it was good at the time in West Virginia. You were staying in that nasty house with about seven men.

Toby (00:45)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Thanks man, thank you.

Yeah, yeah.

That's the most memorable summer of life for so many different reasons. Staying in house, no aircon in middle of West Virginia, 35 degrees every day. ⁓ There are other times that make you the person you are. I've got all bad things to say, but the first couple of weeks was horrendous.

Dom Okus (01:13)
hilarious ⁓

You

Hilarious. Literally.

Nah,

Yeah, nah, the lads was good as well. All the lads that we met at that time, they were classy, it was a good time, it was a good time. But before we even get there, because I'm sure we're gonna get there in your story, I wanna kind of take it all the way back. Where did you grow up? For those who are not familiar with you, where did you grow up?

Toby (01:32)
Yeah, they were.

Yeah, yeah,

Yeah. So, yes,

I grew up in a place called Redford, which is a small town near, it's in between Sheffield, Nottingham, Lincoln, that kind of area. Grew up there, moved around a lot as a kid, and obviously just always played football, Sunday league, you know, and ever since I can remember. But yeah, in and around there, was never really a city, but more like, I guess, more like a country.

Dom Okus (01:56)
R.I.P.

Toby (02:12)
countryside, if you can say it, but I never really lived in a city and stuff. So always been, you know, out the loop. So, yeah.

Dom Okus (02:21)
I feel that, I feel that. Very different to me, I'm a proper city boy, I'm a proper city boy. But did you ever paint any academies growing up as a kid?

Toby (02:23)
Yeah, yeah, that's what I was thinking, yeah.

Yeah, so the problem with me is I was a real late developer and it sounds like an excuse. It's not an excuse, but I was a really late developer, know, hit puberty really late. I was like five foot four till I was about 16, you know, no hairs on my legs or pubes, you know. But yeah, so I signed with Sheffield United when I was 12, played there for a couple of years. Just never really got a look in, like all the lads are just massive, you know, like all, you know, there's lads who...

Dom Okus (02:48)
Hahaha!

Toby (03:01)
you know, for example, Dominic Calvert-Lewin was a year above like at Sheffield and he was just ridiculous. Just a lot of lads that I just wasn't up to the speed at that age. I never was. I was probably playing out of my depth for a couple of years. Left there, signed for Doncaster Rovers, 14 to the Scholar decisions and then got released, which as I'm sure we'll talk about further on, it's a big thing for me to be able to go back and beat them now as a pro. But yeah, so then got released there.

at 16, didn't get a scholarship, was told I was too small and, you know, the easy excuse they always give, they never really give a, never really give a proper one at that age. And then went on to kind of play. I played a bit of non league, but then played like category one college football. So I did like my BTECs in college, played there for two years. And yeah, I really enjoyed it. was looking back now, I'm actually glad I did that route rather than the scholar route, because a lot of whitey scholars nowadays.

you know, they've never really got good things to say about it, you know what I mean? Like it's very, very, very cutthroat, very unenjoyable. So I was kind of, kind of feel lucky to be able to have the opportunity that I did after being released.

Dom Okus (04:13)
Yeah, 100 % man, 100%. And I think a lot of kids in England take that route, right? So like you come out of it and you kind of are attached to a college or a school and you study a little bit and it's kind of pseudo full-time, obviously you're not getting paid. And then try and like form a way in non-league or the route that you took, right? Which is kind of fly halfway across the world and pursue a scholarship in America. So was that always in your mind to kind of fly and do like similar to myself, the scholarship thing?

Toby (04:18)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

I'll say yes, but like it didn't come really late. I was obviously in college till I think it was it would have been what it been May 20. May 2016 was like when I left there 18 years old, so left there. I was playing non league in like the Evo stick at the time. Whatever. I think that's a northern Prem now maybe. You know, as a young lad playing.

kind of had the opportunity to go that fall. So May, August 2016, and I ⁓ just weren't ready. I wasn't ready. Like I just had the opportunity to go to the same school that I ended up at eventually. One of my best mates went, who you know, Mitch Levi Lewis, he went to the same school from the same kind of route as me. He played in the college that I was at and he went out and I was like, nah, I can't go. I can't leave. man, I missed it at the time. And you think you miss it, you know.

Dom Okus (05:26)
Yeah.

Toby (05:39)
18 years old is the one, but obviously not. But yes, I don't want to leave. He gets there about a month, a month later. I'm just playing non-league. I was actually working at the co-op at the time, which I actually enjoyed. I'd recommend if you're looking for a job, the co-op is a great place to work. I know you're doing very well. But yeah, so yeah, and then he came about a month later and he's like, Toby, you've fucked up here. You need to get out.

Dom Okus (05:40)
Thank

Yep.

Yes.

Toby (06:05)
like you need to get out to America because you've made the worst decision you can ever make. So I quickly got back on the email to the coach and I was like, look, I think I made a bad decision, I know we can work it out. And I ended up making the move out in the spring of 2017, so January. So I came out, I was 19 when I came out, so it was a later than what the usual age of 18 is. my first fall I was 20, so I was a little bit late, but...

But yeah, I wouldn't say it was always my aim. Obviously, I think as an 18 year old lad in England, you're always thinking, can I get that move, that move from non league to the football league or to the Prem or whatever you believe at that age. But yeah, so it came all really thick and fast, but I'd say in the space of probably six months in a minute, I made that decision to do it.

Dom Okus (06:52)
Yeah, sick man. And yeah, I think we'll probably talk about this part. Best decision I ever made, Like, it's great the people you meet, like just the opportunities that opens you up to. I'll talk a little bit about myself. So I've always had it in my mind. I wanted to go to America from probably about 16 because yeah, because my older brother was like really good. Like he was like one of the best players in his team at West Ham, was at West Ham for 10 years, was like...

Toby (06:57)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. ⁓

Yeah. Yeah.

Dom Okus (07:20)
One of the best players in the country got a bad injury during the scholarship, didn't end up getting a pro, ended up getting a protagonist when they were in League One and then going through the non-league scene. And I was like, if my brother, who I know is unbelievable, is struggling, I'm probably going to have a tough time. Because I was good. Because I was good. But I wasn't as good as him and I wasn't playing at West Ham for 10 years. But he, through his scholarship, found out about going to America. So I was like, OK.

Toby (07:24)
Yeah.

Yeah. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right, right, right.

Dom Okus (07:49)
So I looked into it and it was like, yeah, you can study. I was always been good in the classroom and you can play football. So I was like, cool. And then that's why I explored that route. But yeah, we talked about earlier in the pod, but we ended up meeting, I guess that would have been in between your first and second semester. So that's summer of 2017. Yeah.

Toby (07:53)
Yeah.

Right.

Yeah, that would have been the first. I'm proud.

I mean, when I first flew out in the January 2017, I don't know what it was like for you, but when I left England on that day, I think it was probably the worst day of my life, thinking about how hard it was. And I remember leaving my family at the airport, whatever, getting back, getting to JFK as a layover. I remember calling my dad and being like, look, I can't do this. Can you get me a flight home? I don't want to go. I can't do it.

Dom Okus (08:21)
Yeah.

Toby (08:35)
And he was like, the best words ever said to me was, Toby said, go for a week. And if you hate it, I'll buy you a flight home. And I remember landing in Virginia, snoked my knees in like January and I was like, what am I doing here? Like what is going on? But then literally by like the end of that week, I was like, I absolutely love it. Like, and then obviously got to the summer, had the opportunity to stay or go home. And I was like, there's no way I'm going home. So I'm staying. Obviously, like I'd not played a fall, so like nobody really knew.

Dom Okus (09:00)
Yes.

Toby (09:05)
I've not played any games, I've played a few games in the spring, which in America in the spring in college is not really much. It's not, it's enough in really season in it really, but, and that obviously I've got the opportunity just to go to West Virginia where I met you and Joanne and Caleb. And that was like, that was my first proper experience for America, you know? So was it, was that your first summer? Was that your first summer,

Dom Okus (09:10)
Yeah.

No.

Yeah man, yeah it was sick man, it was sick. Yeah

that was my first summer league so obviously that would have been after my sophomore year so I'd already played two seasons. Well actually I played my freshman year, my sophomore year was out for the whole season because I'd done my angle. So yeah that was my first summer and I basically did it to like get back fit because I missed the whole season, played a bit of spring like you just said and then I was like right let me spend this summer getting fit because

Toby (09:36)
Okay.

Yeah. Okay.

I got you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dom Okus (09:52)
Our junior year, our coach had always said to me when he recruited me, like, look, your junior year, the group's gonna be really senior. Paul Smith and Josh and all of the English players we had, been seniors and in my group you won, and then we would have been juniors. So we did end up doing really well that junior season, right? We ended up winning the league, beating Charleston and all of that. So it was really good. But back to you, man, back to you. So I don't wanna dwell too much.

Toby (10:03)
Yeah.

Right, right, right.

huh, right, right, right.

Dom Okus (10:19)
on your college career, because obviously there's a lot to talk about here, but you had a really good college career, right? All things considered, you had a really good college career. I think I was a good at your stats, scored something like 16 goals and maybe like six to 10 assists, something like that. And for people who are listening to this, might not be familiar with, you're a centre back. I've known you in college as a centre back, played a bit of a right back as a pro now, but for a defender to score 16 goals.

Toby (10:25)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Dom Okus (10:47)
It's a bit mad, obviously, across the many seasons. But do you feel like, did you feel like you should have been playing at a higher level than you were? Of course, you've got the D1s and stuff. Did you feel like you could have maybe been playing at a higher level?

Toby (10:49)
Yeah.

Right.

I mean, I think after a period of time, obviously, you get a lot of awards in America, they give awards out for a lot of things. But I think it was after my sophomore year, kind of had words of, can transfer, can get you a full ride here, I can get you a full ride there. It was all verbal kind of stuff. There was never anything in thinking that. I think if I'd have gone to say, I want to transfer, I probably could have gone to a D1 and...

and gone to a better school, but I just loved, I loved where I was at. And I'm sure, I'm sure you're the same. Like even though was a D2 and everyone, and I think, I think the whole thing about D2 and D1 in America is ridiculous. You know, I think the way D2 is written off, cause they're not players at D2, like some of the best players I've played have played D2. Like, yeah, I think, I think the way it's perceived in the, in the,

Dom Okus (11:37)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Def.

Yep.

Toby (11:57)
in the footballing world in America in college, I think is ridiculous. But that's a whole nother conversation to have. But I think, yeah, I feel like I could have. But, you know, my coach at Chouin was, you know, amazing to me. mean, he was like, I mean, it sounds a bit cringy, but was like a dad to me, you know, and like the way he developed me as a person, as a player, like he always said to me, look, stick with me, I'll get out, you'll get a pro, I'll get out to get your pro, whatever, stick with me, stick with me.

Dom Okus (12:03)
Yes.

Toby (12:26)
So yeah, I just made the decision. And look, like I say, after my sophomore year, I probably could have gone to a D1, but who's to say I could have gone to a D1, not got along with a coach, or could have gone to a D1 and hated it, could have gone to a D1 and felt uncomfortable and not playing how I was. So I think I made the right decision in the end to stay, but it would have always been interesting to see what would have happened if I'd have made that decision, but that's all hindsight, know?

Dom Okus (12:54)
percent.

Toby (12:54)
But no, I definitely had the thoughts and whatever, but I was definitely happy and content that I stayed. I think, I mean, you you fall in love in small schools, you know, I'm sure you're the same at West Virginia Wesleyan. So it's an experience more than it is anything else, you know.

Dom Okus (13:09)
Yeah.

100 % and like you say right we both probably played against D1 schools in preseason or whatever and you're just as good if not better than the players that are playing there which is a point that you're making around like it being written off you know because like you say there were some really really good players in D2 like yourself who have ended up being being pros right but I think you'd probably say the highlight of your college career is probably getting what USL defender of the year in was that your senior after your senior year or before your senior

Toby (13:16)
Mm.

Right, right.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

That was my,

I guess it's called a super senior, you know, cause the COVID thing, you got an extra year. So after my four years in college, I actually went home during COVID and I was like, want to go home and try and be a pro. So I went home in like November. It was all during COVID or whatever. Got a job in a B&Q factory. And I was like, it was horrendous, mate. But I was there for like three months. Like, I don't know what I was, my plans were, but basically the country going to lockdown. was like, can't, no clubs are taking anybody on like.

Dom Okus (13:46)
⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hahaha!

Toby (14:11)
There's nothing I can do. Then my coach called me back up from America. He come back out. I'll give you a masters for free. Play one more year. Have the best year you can have and then you'll get a pro at the end of it. I was like, well, f*ck it. I've got nothing to lose. Why not? Which again was another good decision. Well, probably the best decision I made because who knows where I'd have been if I got stuck in England. I'd probably be like a supervisor at B&Q or something. There's nothing wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with it. But I'd rather be here.

Dom Okus (14:33)
You never broke with that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, very different to where you are today. Very different to where you are today.

Toby (14:42)
Exactly, exactly.

So, yeah, and then I came back out and that was the year 2021. Did the USL2 again at South Carolina at Bantams in Columbia, South Carolina, which loved that. Every summer I've loved every, I think the summer, if it weren't for the summers, I won't be a pro now. That's for sure. Like if it weren't for playing summer ball and playing with the different players in different places and all, you're playing.

in front of fans that you don't even get in League Two in England. So that was the year I got national defender of the year. And that was kind of what, I'm sure we'll go into it, but that was how I kind of got into Pittsburgh just from that really one award. Because like I say, D2 is written off. mean, think I'm a three time D2 All-American. We've got defender of the years and all this, but that's the problem. It means nothing to anyone. And I think that's...

Dom Okus (15:12)
Yeah.

Well.

Toby (15:38)
That's not just talking off my back. I say, you can agree with me, there's so many, many good players at D2 that just get written off because they have a D2 next to their name, which I think is ridiculous. But yeah, that summer was a big one for me ⁓ personally and obviously enjoyed it.

Dom Okus (15:50)
100 %

Yeah, I mean, if you even talk about my mate, right, who you just played against, Matt Bentley, played with me at Wesleyan for three years, ends up transferring down to Missouri State. And I think he was in like the top five for the Herman, which is like the soccer equivalent of the Heisman, scored like 20 goals or whatever it is. So yeah, like we can do it at that level as well. ⁓ But yeah, so you talked about obviously getting your pro at Pittsburgh. So you didn't get drafted. So how does that come about? Did they reach out to you for a trial and you got to go and...

Toby (16:09)
But.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dom Okus (16:25)
go out to Pittsburgh and prove yourself, like how does it work?

Toby (16:28)
Yes, it was insane really, because at the time, after that 2021 year, after I graduated or whatever, I actually never graduated because I didn't finish my masters, but I just left the school. I stayed in America over Christmas, so was like, look, if I go home, I ain't going to get back. There's going to be tough for me to get back. So I stayed, speaking to a few agents. But again, even at that point, which still annoys me to this day, you're speaking to agents and

Dom Okus (16:47)
Yeah.

Toby (16:57)
You're on the phone to me you go, I'll play D2. And they just put the phone, they're not, they're not bothered. Like it's crazy in that, you know, since then I've actually had some agents that turned me down then actually reached back out to me. It's mental bro. but, but yeah, so I kind of reach out to people and, and, I was fortunate of one of my, ⁓ one of my coaches when I played one of the summer leagues and I had a link to Pittsburgh and he said, look, Toby, like, let me just stick, I'll stick your video in there, stick what you've, you know, your awards, whatever.

Dom Okus (17:08)
Crazy.

Toby (17:26)
and just see what comes of it. And they basically invited me to this invitational combine. And it was, I think there 60 players there. I was the only player from a D2 school out of the whole group. And it was just literally two days of just like, who's taking these opportunities? Like it was just 11 v 11 constantly, know, lads just flying into tackles, whatever. And then after the combine,

got a call like a few days later and it was like, look, we want you to come in for preseason. We're not giving you a contract now, but you know, coming to preseason, prove yourself with the guys, play a few games, see what comes up kind of thing. And Dom, when I tell you the first week of this preseason, I have never in my life played as, as worse as I honestly, we get, we get, we get, we get there and I'm just absolutely shitting myself. I'm like,

Dom Okus (18:20)
You

Toby (18:21)
And honestly,

like I was like, because it was everything I'd ever worked for. I mean, it was my first chance of ever being a pro. And I was just cacking myself, mate. Like, I remember going in and just shaking. I'm like, are you doing, bro? Like, grow up. And we trained the first week and at the end of the week, the coach called everyone who was in preseason and we're all waiting in the waiting room. He's going to a meeting, whatever. And he's gone, look, Toby, called me and he's gone, look, Toby's gone. We don't care whether you stay or go.

Dom Okus (18:25)
course.

Yes.

Toby (18:49)
It's up to you. said, I've released some lads. I've given some lads contracts, but if you want to go, you can go. If, cause if you, cause he said you've been shit this week, but if you want to come back next week and actually like play to your potential and prove yourself, then you can do that too. But it's, I'll leave it with you. And I'm thinking, fuck, I've fucked this up. I've messed this up now. Like my only chance I'm done. Uh, and I thought, right, I'll come back next week. And then on the Thursday of the week after they offered me, they offered me a pro. So.

Dom Okus (19:09)
Yes.

class

Toby (19:17)
It was, I don't know what changed

Dom Okus (19:18)
class

Toby (19:19)
in that week. Like, I guess I just came back that next week with just like, I've got nothing to lose now because they probably, they don't want me anyway. So like, if they turned me down into the suite, they didn't want me anyway. So it didn't really matter. So I just, I just kind of came in, I think with the attitude of like, there's no pressure. So just kind of go in and, and do what you can, I guess. So, and that was that.

Dom Okus (19:26)
Thank

Thanks.

Yeah.

And

if I'm the manager as well, the fact that he's told you that and he sees your face on Monday, he must've been like, yeah, he's got a bit of bands. He's got a bit of bands.

Toby (19:45)
Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think at the time I was more at the time I was more like I want to go back because I don't want to look like another like to all the other lads that were there like it like, Toby got fucked off. He's like, like I was just like, I want to go back and kind of be like, ⁓ no, actually, he asked me to come back. He asked me to come back. He didn't. ⁓ But but no, it was it was definitely crazy. And like, obviously, is a

Dom Okus (19:57)
What?

Yeah

hahahahah ⁓

Toby (20:14)
going in as my first pro opportunity and now I was like, I kinda didn't wanna let it go as easy as well. it probably did help with what you say, like he me come back on Monday and was like, yeah, he means business kind of thing. and obviously at the time, I mean, I'm grateful for him to not say, well, just go and not come back. So at least he gave me a bit of an opportunity to go and like prove myself, I guess.

Dom Okus (20:35)
Sure. So what was your mindset going into that season, right? Because although you've got the pro and you I guess you've done the hard thing of getting the contract, it's still a bit of an uphill battle, right? Because obviously you had this shaky start, you're probably not the first name on a team sheet. So now you're having to like really prove yourself. like talk about the rest of the preseason and then going into the season. Were you starting by the time the first game came around? Were you off the bench? Like talk a little bit about that.

Toby (20:42)
Yeah. Right, Mm-hmm. Right.

Right.

So, I mean, was, it was tough. mean, ⁓ you know, Pittsburgh's known for, for being a tough place. Like you've got to have, you've to be a strong mentally to go there and, and do your thing. Cause you know, they expect high standards of you. and obviously I've gone in as a rookie, you know, there's lots that have been pros for 10 years. You know, there's, there's lots of, of, of, you know, playing the usr play more, whatever for, for years. So.

I kind of also went in after that and I was like, well, look, now I've got the contract. I don't just want to like sit back and be like, right, I've done it now because I've not, I've not done anything. It's all cliche to say, but I've not, you know, I've got it. I've done what I kind of been aiming to do for 20. I mean, by the time I signed my first prize, 24. So for 24 years, I've been trying to do it and I've done it. But what's the point in doing all this just to then take a backseat? Now I've got it so I can, know, cause I can put in my bio professional football.

and then just and then just not play again. Do you want to me inside like I can't. I kind of wanted to go with the attitude of like, well, let's actually make something of it. So I mean, yeah, pre preseason was tough. I played a few games in preseason and did OK. I don't I don't I can't remember exactly. I didn't start the first few games. I was on the bench, I think. And the first game I actually started was in the US Open Cup and the gaffer pulled me and he's like, look, Toby, playing right wing. And I was like.

Dom Okus (21:58)
Yeah, 100%.

Toby (22:26)
what? And he's like, you're playing right wing. I was like, all right. initially, I guess I say this. When they signed me, were like, we see you more as a right back, a right wing back. So we see you more as that. But even then, obviously, like you said, I played center back all over to that point. You know me as center back. I've not really played a bit. I played a bit of right back in preseason. But then he's gone, look, you're playing right wing. And I was like, all right, sound. And then 20 minutes into the game, he goes.

Switch to the left, switch to the left. So I'm going from center half to playing left wing. And I'm like, surely this is, nah, like what's going on here? And anyway, like 25, 30 minutes in, I score. Like the cross comes in from the right, I score at the back post, bottom corner. I'm like, what's going on here? And I'm like, I've scored at left wing here. Like I've been playing in the wrong position my whole life. And then second half, come back out, ball comes to me again, score again, bends it in, cuts on my right, bends it in.

Dom Okus (23:02)
You

OOF

plus.

Toby (23:21)
scored two, we won two-nil. And I'm like, I've been playing in wrong position my whole life. I was like, what is going on here? But then the toughest thing, and this is what I said about the mental thing, is that I did that in the US Open Cup. So I'm thinking I'm on top of the world, scored two, debut, whatever it was, one gone through. I've seen my name on Twitter and all this. I've never seen all that before and whatever. And then with no explanation, I was out the squad for six games.

Dom Okus (23:25)
Class. So good.

Toby (23:50)
After that, of the 18, completely no word, no why, nothing. And then you're like, that point, like me and a couple of boys that I'm really good friends with now, we were rookies at the time, we kind of built a relationship on like mental strength around each other. Cause like, some of us were like, what is going on here? Cause it happened to a lot of the rookies there and a lot of the guys. And you know, I've gone from being like on top of the world thinking fucking hell, I've done something here. And then I'm getting texts from my family, like, why are you not playing?

why are out of the squad? What's this? What's that? And I'm like, that's insane. Like, and obviously at the time it's like, well, look, I think back, I think back now and I'm like, you know, I did it in the US Open Cup. Probably I need to prove myself in this and whatever. But at the time as a rookie, I'm like, well, what, you know, what have I done wrong? Blame myself and all this. And it was tough. It was tough. And there was a few times throughout the year that that happened as a rookie. But I think that's what, you know, built me into now, you know, so.

Dom Okus (24:47)
Yeah, that's crazy. And you said you don't get an explanation, right? So like, are you the type of player, I know there's a few, who would, you know, go knock on the gaffer's door and gaffer why we're not playing. Did you not do any of that? Do you just kind of leave it to, okay, I'm not in the squad then I'll just keep training harder.

Toby (24:50)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think at the time, I was, I thought, well, as much as I want an explanation, like, as a rookie, do I deserve one? In a way, like, do I deserve to, if a guy who's been a pro for four or five years is not going and asking why he's not playing, why do I deserve to kind of thing? So that, I think that was kind of my mindset. And it was like one of them where as much as I wanted to, I think it benefit me more if I didn't. So.

Dom Okus (25:12)
Mmm.

Yes.

Toby (25:32)
I didn't for a while and in the end I actually did like maybe after the fourth or fifth game because I thought in my thought I thought was training well, working hard, know, why am I not getting there? And I went in, I was in there for like two and a half hours with the gaffer and it's kind of given me an explanation, but it's kind of not. you know, and what I took from it was at the end of the day, like you're going to have ups and downs, know, nothing's given, you know, you need just cause you've scored a couple of goals, you need to go and earn it every week and all this. it was good. I appreciated the

the explanation when I went and asked for it, you know, it's tough. It's tough definitely as a rookie, like you said for the however many times not knowing why, like you question yourself, why am I not, you know, what am I doing wrong in training? What am I not as good at as this guy is kind of thing. And without an explanation, it's hard to know what to work on and focus on, you know, so.

Dom Okus (26:24)
Is there, if there's any like young pros, first year pros, rookie pros who are going through this same scenario, right? Where they feel like they've done something good, because I've heard it countless times from my mates who play football, right? You're doing something great and then all of a sudden it just flips on its head and you're out of the team and you kind of feel iced out. Is there anything you would have done differently based on what you know now? Obviously you're a little bit more of a seasoned pro. Is there anything differently you would have done?

Toby (26:35)
Yeah.

I mean, first thought is I think everybody deserves an explanation. Like think you deserve a reason as to why you're not. Like, you know, I'm not asking for a sit down for three hours and you need to, know, for a coach to ridicule my game and tell me, I'm just saying you're not in the squad because he's doing better than you right now. You're not in the squad because you've done it in the open court, but you've been shitting shit. Like that kind of thing I think is always...

Dom Okus (27:11)
Yeah.

Toby (27:13)
I think everybody deserves that on a respect level, I believe anyway. But obviously sometimes you don't get that. I think if I could have changed anything at that point, it would have just tried to stay as positive as I can because I spent countless nights, I beat myself up and why, why, why? But at the end of the day, it's out of my control. I've gone into a game and scored two playing out of position, I'm not in the squad for the next six games, there's not really much I've done wrong.

that's in my control. All I can do now is control the way I feel, control what I do off the pitch, control what I do in training every day, control how I conduct myself. So I think one the reasons when I went in to see the coach that he gave me was like, you don't seem approachable walking around the training ground. And that was at the time, I'm like, what are you talking about? But it's probably because I was being so negative and so hard on myself. It was affecting my mood, my all around people. People thought, you know, he's being miserable again, but.

Dom Okus (27:42)
Mmm.

Yes.

Right.

Toby (28:10)
I think that's all about controlling what I can control, controlling my emotions, controlling how I then conduct myself to be a professional rather than a boy. Do you know what mean? Like being professional player. So if anything, just be, realize that you can only control what you can control. And if you feel like you're doing everything you can, obviously there's more everybody can always do, but don't beat yourself up so much, I think.

Dom Okus (28:23)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, no, that's very fair. That's very fair. So obviously things come to an end at Pittsburgh. And as we just wrap up this section, how do you reflect on your time there? Positively, negatively, obviously it was your first pro, but obviously it seems like from a mood perspective, it is very up and down. So like, how do you reflect on it just in general?

Toby (28:48)
Yeah.

Look, I I played 16 games at the end of the season, scored three, two assists I think. So I was pretty happy with myself coming into the season. Now, like you say, it had been up and down mood wise. mean, the guys I met at Pittsburgh, the friends I've got for life there, they're one of the biggest things I take out of that, that I built them relationships up and whatever. I think it was a...

It was a year where I learned so much about myself and so much about the pro game that I felt like I was ready for wherever I was next because I felt like I learned so much. Whether that be negative or positive, I feel like I took it all on board. And I think going in as a rookie, playing 16 games, scoring assists in the USL champ, coming from a D2 school that everybody thinks is shit. By the of the year, I was pleasing myself and I think...

I look back on it positively because I think I made a good account of myself in Pittsburgh and, you know, and whether that's with players I play with, the coaching staff, the fans, whatever, think I always gave a good account myself with how hard I worked, whatever, terms of that, just by the basics. So yeah, I was happy with it and I felt like it definitely readied me for what was next.

Dom Okus (30:13)
Yeah, sick. Which is that perfect segue into what was next, which is you heading down to Harrogate. Yeah. Are you trying to take my job or what? What's going on? Nah, that was really good. So obviously you end up at Harrogate town where you were for the last two and a half years-ish. Now, I'll be honest, when I saw it and I saw you got signed, I was super happy for you, but I was surprised, right?

Toby (30:17)
Yeah, do you like how I did that? Do like how I did that? Thank you.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

yeah.

Dom Okus (30:38)
You've

only played one professional season and then you've made the move to the Football League, which I think most people would see as a step up. You'll have to tell me whether it was actually a step up in terms of level, but most people would see it as a step up. So just talk to us a little bit about how that comes about.

Toby (30:48)
huh, yeah.

It was honestly, was, it was insane. I've gone home after Pittsburgh. I wasn't going back to Pittsburgh. ⁓ they weren't picking up my option. didn't, at the time I didn't really want to, I wanted to kind of look what else was out there kind of thing. ⁓ but they didn't pick up my option and I went home just with, you know, the thoughts of going home to see family. I'd verbally agree to sign with another team, the USL championship. I'm not going to say who, but at the time I'd verbally agreed to sign with them.

Dom Okus (31:21)
Yes.

Toby (31:24)
Nothing really set in stone, but I just went by just to see the family at Christmas like you do when you're in college or whatever, because I'd not been out for a couple of years. And at the time I didn't really have an agent. I had somebody who was helping me, but I'd never signed an agent contract at that point. And one of my old coaches had recently become an agent and he messaged me and said, look, Toby, I see you back in England. Do you want to meet up for a chat just to catch up?

And I was like, yeah, of course I do. So I went to meet him and he was like, look, said, look, why are back? Like, I know your aim is to go back out to America. Um, you know, do you want me to get you into a team, just to train to stay fit? And I was like, yeah, like, course I do. Cause obviously there's only so much you can do on your own. You know, train on your own is crap, know, like dribbling through cones and, know, shooting three balls wide and then we go and fetch them behind the goal and stuff, you know? um, so yeah, and he calls me the next day and says, look, Harrogate Town will have you into training.

Dom Okus (32:06)
I'm sure. Yeah, crap. Yeah. Yeah.

Toby (32:21)
And at the time I'm like, fucking hell, like I'm looking at League two, like, what do you they'll have me into training? At the time when I went in, it wasn't a trial, like I've gone in and it's like, I'm just there to train. Like that's simply what it was. You know, I've turned up in the first day, I think I was driving my granddad's 2006 Citroen C3. So I've turned up in the car park, like, and all these lads are there and I've gone off. I think I'm training with you boys today and obviously took me inside and whatever.

Dom Okus (32:24)
Yes. Yeah.

You

Toby (32:51)
Trained for a couple of weeks, just nothing. I was traveling in, obviously not getting any money, not getting paid, just kind of doing it because I thought, I'm going into training to stay fit. If something comes of it, which there was nothing supposed to ever really come from it, then it's perfect. If not, then at least I've done the job and I've stayed fit. In my mind, I was going to this team in the USL championship and then it gets about two and a half weeks in and apparently gaffer called

Dom Okus (33:15)
So,

Toby (33:20)
I called the agent who I was with, who I'd signed with in England and said, look, like, what do we need to give Toby to stay? He said, I can't, we can't give him a lot. We can't give him a lot with mid season. We ain't got a big budget, but what would he want? And the agent called me and I was like, look, like, I don't need that much. Like, I just need enough. Just let me get by. Let me get improved myself. Just, I just need, I just need enough to live off. And so he's gone back and said, look, you need this. And the gaffer was like, oh, fucking, I thought he'd need more than that.

Dom Okus (33:35)
Mm-hmm.

But.

Toby (33:51)
And the words were, and they stick with me today, I am pretty proud of it. He said to the agent that I can't let Toby go because he's the best trialist I've ever seen. And like, obviously at the time I didn't even think it was a trial. So, and then he'd say, no, he's the best trial. And this is obviously a coach who's managing the football league for, you know, he's been at Harrogate for 12 years. I know that I've not been in the football league for 12 years, but he's been around the game and he's seen a lot. And for him to say that, like that really stuck with me.

Dom Okus (34:02)
sick

Hmm.

Toby (34:20)
And he's like, I can't, he's that good, I can't let him go. He said, I've never signed a player off, not seen him in a game, but there's no chance with Tito being a game midway through the season if I don't sign him, but he's been that good in training, I can't let him go. So we'll give him a six month deal. comes in and proves himself. And I was like, at the time I'm like, fucking hell, yeah, like of course I'll take that. And because obviously, like I think I said to you when we were catching up before our fair, was saying like, a big thing for me was to prove a lot of people wrong that.

We're saying, you've gone out to America because you can't do it in England. You've gone out and they do that blah, blah. So it's funny. A lot of people come out the woodwork as well. When it happens, it's crazy. People who telling me I was shit and now telling me, I knew you could do it. Like I had , I had. it's funny because go back to when I speaking about being a scholar at Donnie (Doncaster), I had the coach release me at Donnie. He had the nerve and the audacity to text me when I signed at Harrogate saying, congratulations, Toby. I always knew you could do it.

Dom Okus (35:04)
Over.

Mm.

Mm.

Toby (35:18)
And I'm thinking, what a bellend you are. Yeah. I'm like, what? I hope he, he'll never see this, but I hope he does cause you're a bellend mate. Like what a, what ridiculous thing to say.

Dom Okus (35:20)
No you didn't.

Yeah.

He literally released you and then said I always knew you could do it. What are you on about?

Toby (35:33)
Yeah, honestly,

it's mental. It's mental. But yeah, I went in on the six-month deal. And look, at the time, I was like... I knew I deserved it, but for me to play in the Football League after everything, was like, wow. Like, I was even like... Like you said, you were like, oh, wow. But I was even like that. was like, what's going on? And then, you know, I had a couple of weeks training, was on the bench.

Dom Okus (35:37)
Yeah.

Toby (36:02)
Made my debut, got dragged at half time. was Sutton United at home. Made my debut at right wing back, got dragged at half time with two and 0 down. And I was like, I'm not good enough for this level. I genuinely, thought I'm not good enough for this.

Dom Okus (36:15)
Wow.

So did you get dragged because you was having a singlet?

Toby (36:19)
Well, he dragged four of us at our time. So it weren't just me, I guess if you want to say that, but I was probably having a stinker. But yeah, so then like I was in a position where I was like then kind of like trying to work back in the team. This is like mid February. And then the right back who was playing at the time suffered a really horrible injury at Carlisle. I traveled to Carlisle.

Dom Okus (36:21)
Right, okay. Yeah, just wanted to change things up.

you

Toby (36:44)
The gaffer told me it pretty much me, I wasn't in the squad, I was like, okay, like at that time, I'm not gonna get annoyed. I'm in the football league, like I know I've got to my badges, know? And about 93rd minute, I'm in the stands watching it, right at Carlisle, and the right back gets like a knee to his face, and his face, he basically broke his whole face. Like it was ridiculous, it was awful, like to see. And after that game, he was out the rest of the season.

Dom Okus (36:55)
Yep.

Wow.

Toby (37:14)
I came in and played every game. Well, I should have been every game. I got I got a red card. I got pretty much banned. was ridiculous. Red card. But yeah, played some from then to the end of the season. I played 17 games in Football League, which obviously at the time, I'm like, wow, that's insane. And and then about two weeks before the end of the season, they offered me a two year deal. It was actually two days after I got the red card of we're way at Crawley, we're three now down. And it's about 88 minutes.

Dom Okus (37:29)
Yeah.

Alas.

Toby (37:43)
Honestly, what a ridiculous decision. And I've gone to get the ball from a throw to throw it in quick and their lads barged me. said, what are doing? I've just launched the ball at him. And the ref was like, right, red card, three-match ban, violent conduct. And I'm like, right, brilliant. And to be fair, when that happened, I'd not even got the two years. So thought, I'm done here. I've messed everything up by making a stupid decision. But I was fortunate and grateful enough to get a two-year after that. And then that takes me up to a few months ago.

Dom Okus (37:52)
Red cut.

Busy.

Just.

WEP

Yeah,

sick man. What a story. What a story. I just want to take it back to the trial, right? Like, I know you, right? Even from chaos days, you take things really seriously, like you're super competitive. Is that just the energy that you brought in that trial that they saw and they were like, yeah, like we have to, we have to sign this guy. Like what do you think it was?

Toby (38:18)
Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I

think so. think it was just, you know, like I'm the type of guy I'll block a shot on whenever I'm throwing my body, like I'm making slide tackles when people probably wouldn't do it. I'm putting my head in where it hurts. And I think it was just the energy I brought. Like I was nowhere near the best player there. And when I say that best trialist, I don't think he's talking about talent because there was some unbelievable players. I was definitely not the most talented footballer there.

Dom Okus (38:55)
Yeah.

Toby (39:01)
I think it was just the energy I brought, the attitude, I did the basics well, I came in and kind of tried to like, I'm not a lead, but I came in and wasn't just quiet. Do you know what I mean? And I think that probably stood out to him, but I think definitely the energy to always win, like you say, the competitiveness and that, that I've always had and I still have to this day, I think is probably what kind of stood out.

Obviously, I haven't gone into there with guys that have played in the Prem, there's guys that play in the Champ, it's a mental setting for me going from playing away at fucking Southern Wesleyan University to then going to play there. But yeah, I think that was probably it. But like I say, them words that he said will probably stay with me forever, I'll be honest, I'm pretty proud of it.

Dom Okus (39:45)
Yeah.

Yeah, so at what point did you think, yeah, I'm a league two footballer? Because you remember, right, you talked about your debut, getting dragged and thinking, I'm out of my depth. Then obviously you play a bunch of games and get the red card, you think you're not going to get the connie, then you end up getting the two years. Is it that next season when you start playing again that you think, okay, cool, I deserve to be at this level?

Toby (40:01)
Uh-huh.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think so and I think I'm way too hard on myself. I go into a lot of games thinking I'm not good enough to be up to a certain point. then you talk about the next season, I started the season really well, really good pre-season, played the first eight games I think and then stupidly in training.

So there's me and this other right back called Kay and Ramsey is absolute. I don't know if you know him, but he's an absolute baller. Like he's at Charlton now absolutely smashing in the champ. Like he's a joke. So I don't want it, I'm not bad mouthed at all, but at the start of that season, I've come in playing right back and he's out of the squad. I know the whole, he's an absolute joke. So I'm like, if I'm keeping up the squad, I've got something about me here. And then eight games in training just after any normal day.

Dom Okus (41:04)
Yeah.

Toby (41:09)
We're going to a small sided game. Gaffer says, who wants to an extra game? Because I'm busy and I've got, yeah, me. And in this extra game, I've smashed me head, got a concussion. obviously I can't play. Kane Ramsey's come in, absolutely smashed it. I mean, fucking fair play to him. Smash it for the rest of the season. And then me and him are kind of gone back and forth a little bit. Two months after that, I found out I had a fracture in my spine.

Dom Okus (41:14)
Yes!

Toby (41:37)
So I was out for seven months that second year. So he's obviously come in, smashed it, played all that time and was ridiculous, like ridiculously good. But I've not even got the chance because I had a fracture in my spine. was out for seven months. In the end, I had injections in my spine. I had an epidural in my spine. It was horrendous. So even in that second season, really, no, didn't really because I never really got chance to show myself.

I only came back fully fit that season, the second to last game, and then I started the last game. So the second, I think I made 10 appearances in my second season. So even after the second season, I'm like, I don't know, I've not played a consistent, really run of games. I I played the one the first six months, but you know, whatever. So came back this last season just gone, and it was a be all and end all really for me because I needed to have a consistent year because obviously at the time, going to start the year, I was-

Dom Okus (42:11)
Brat.

Toby (42:34)
to stay in England so I wanted another deal, wanted to get another team in England, whatever it was. So I knew I had to come in and I was fortunate enough and I worked hard and I played 46 games by the end of this season. So I'm sure we'll speak about it but played some massive games this past season. And I think at the end of it, I think I finished with 86 appearances I think for Harrogate, 76 in the Football League.

Dom Okus (42:59)
Well...

Yeah, amazing man, amazing. Let's talk about it because obviously there's some big clubs in League 2, right? So let's talk about like what are some of that your favourite away stadiums that you got to play in, crowds that you got to play against, moment from the season, obviously goals and all of that. Let's go into it.

Toby (43:07)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, well, I'll be honest, my first goal was Rochdale at home. At the end of first six months, at the end of that half season, I scored my first goal at Rochdale at home. That was unbelievable. My first goal in the Football League was an unbelievable feeling. But yeah, I mean, there's massive teams, bro. Like Bradford away, they get 20,000. You you're playing like Swindon away. I don't know why, but people say, oh, what?

Dom Okus (43:26)
rep.

Toby (43:44)
Swindon away is really good and they've got really good, really good support. ⁓ you know, Grimm has been away, but you know, the thing is in England is like fans of clubs in England, that's their life. Like it's everything to them. So the passion, the sound, like the noise that you get to games, you can't hate yourself. Think, and you get used to it by the end, but at the start I was like, f**k it now, like this is ridiculous. ⁓ so there was a lot, there was a lot to kind of go through. ⁓

Dom Okus (43:56)
Yeah

Yeah.

Toby (44:14)
So obviously, know, like, fans at this level, like the passion and it's their life, like they love the football club. It's, you know, every Saturday, every Tuesday night, there are every game. So the passion you get from the fans and, know, when you're playing games and the sound from the fans and it just means a lot to people there. So you can tell. So when you're playing in front of 20,000, it's ridiculous. And I mean,

You know, there's a lot of big clubs back in this last year. played Leeds away in the FA Cup at Elland road and Dom like when I tell you, mate, like that, this was the best day of my life. Like 40,000 people playing Elland road. It's sold out. My family's there. My Mrs. Was over at the time. You know, all my friends are there. You know, we took four and a half thousand to leads, but you play, you're playing at a stadium that like you watch on TV. You played it on FIFA. Like it.

Dom Okus (45:10)
Historic

growth. Crazy.

Toby (45:11)
Bro, was

the, I remember when it got drew, that we were playing Leeds, I was sat there watching it, and all these Prem teams have come up, it's like Man City, like, Solve forgot Man City away, like, there's Man U, there's all these, and we could have got anyone, we could have got Liverpool, could have got, excuse me, Newcastle, Man City, whatever it was, and all the Prem teams went, and it came up, Leeds denied it at home, and I'm thinking, wow, this is our last one to play at a big, historic place.

Dom Okus (45:38)
Yep, yep.

Toby (45:39)
And we got it and I was like, I have to play in that game. Like I have to be playing in that game. because the round before we played like games with Trinity, we were like the lowest ranked team left in it. we're on like BBC, BBC One played them and we knew we were hoping we'd get a big draw. And we got it run and I can't even describe like we like pulling up to the stadium, like.

Dom Okus (45:50)
MWAH

Yeah.

Toby (46:04)
Like obviously playing League two, you play at big stadiums like Bradford and Swindon and whatever these big stadiums are, like M.K. Don's who has 40,000 seats, they only get about 3,000, but it's a massive stadium. But when you get to the stadium, it's like, this is like the life of football and this is a joke. And when we're out, walking out to the pitch just to look at it, and I was like, this is like, you don't even feel real, like it genuinely felt like I was like playing in game, bro, like.

Dom Okus (46:15)
Yep.

Toby (46:34)
come out for the warm up, there's like our four and a half thousand fans screaming. And then like the stadium's filling up during the warm up and I'm like looking around and I'm like, like we're doing like the back four thing, you know, you do before a game where they're, and I'm like, I'm looking around and I'm like, and I'm missing my goal. I'm like, this is fucking ridiculous. And then like, we obviously gone back changing room, come back to walk out. When I come out and I'm lined up against like ethan ampadu Manu Solomon, willy gnonto you know, like Joe Rode, like.

Dom Okus (46:45)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Toby (47:03)
I didn't play actually, that's a lie. But like Sam Barron, players that have played in the Prem and had unbelievable careers and are still having unbelievable careers. I'm lined up next and I'm thinking, what have I done to get here? Like, it's ridiculous. Now I'm walking out, lining up and then like we're stood in like the formation, whatever. And obviously the Leeds fans think about marching on together, right? And it's like ridiculous. I stood there and I was thinking, I feel like I'm playing on FIFA here. Like I feel like I'm controlling myself and like be a pro on FIFA.

Dom Okus (47:15)
yeah, crazy man.

Yeah.

Toby (47:33)
It's unbelievable.

Dom Okus (47:34)
Yeah.

Toby (47:36)
But yeah, that was with like a Marking Man of Solomon is on about 80 grand a week at Tottenham on loan that leads and that is just chopping me up every five minutes. But now that was everything for me. That justified to me why I went back to England. That was the justification of like, you did it for reasons like this, you As much I'm not playing down anything else, playing in the football league and because that's still a thing that

Dom Okus (47:41)
Hahaha!

100%.

Toby (48:03)
millions of kids want to do and it's it's a it's a um what's the word i'm looking for it's a what's the word i'm looking for

Dom Okus (48:13)
Like, it's an honor. It's an honor to be here.

Toby (48:15)
Oh no, that's a word. It's an honor to do it and I'm very grateful

that I got the opportunity. I feel like I worked hard for it, but I got the opportunity and I was very lucky and fortunate to be in that position. But just playing at Ellen Road is just like everything, you know? So yeah, it's insane and there's a lot of good stadiums, good clubs, good place, know, like Wimbledon away, Walls-Sulloy, like places where the fans are just crazy. It's definitely a lot of experiences that I'll hold forever, you know?

Dom Okus (48:28)
Crazy man. Crazy. Crazy man.

Amazing, amazing bro. And like, this is going to be a crazy segue I'm about to take us on, but like, you've established yourself as a football league player, right? And that you've the full season, you've played in the FA Cup versus Leeds. It feels like you've arrived and then you make the decision at the end of the season to turn around, right? And go back and come to the U.S. And obviously we spoke a little bit off air about, you know, why, and I could definitely understand why.

Toby (49:09)
Yeah.

Dom Okus (49:13)
But for those who would have seen, you you sign in for Greenville after being at Harrogate, again, it probably was that similar shock that people had when you first got signed. So what is it about coming back to the US that, you know, attracted you to end up being at Greenville and you played there during like USL season during college, you've got a connection with them. But like, what is it about, you know, coming back and playing in the US that attracted you to it?

Toby (49:18)
Mm-hmm.

Right, right, right, right.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, look, like it was always a tough decision to make. I kind of made the decision in my mind, maybe a couple of months before the end of the season. Obviously I wanted to make sure I finished the season strong and at the time we were battling relegation. So wanted to make sure I did everything I could to make sure the club stayed in the football league. So I wanted to leave the club in a better place than when I came. So I didn't want to leave on a relegation or whatever. So I wanted to make sure I was giving my all until the end, I guess.

But yeah, I went in with a gasp for about a month before the end of the season. I told him and he was understanding. He was great with me. He said, look, nothing changes on our end, but you go with our best wishes. The whole transition, they were fantastic. And I've not even got one bad word to say. But yeah, I think one of the biggest factors is my missus. We were doing long distance ever since I went back. So I only met her in August of 22.

and I left in November 22 and we did long distance ever since then. So that was hard. You know, being at the age I am, 27 and she's 29 and wanted to be closer together to, you know, go to the next stage of our lives, you know, marriage, kids, whatever, and that can't be done long distance. It's hard. I just think the lifestyle, I you know, the life you get like, I can get back from training here at 11 a.m. and go and sit by a pool.

You know what I mean? Like you can't do that in England, know, and, you know, and a lot of, a lot of big people in my life are in America. So as much I've got my family in England, my family will always be there. You know, and like I to be fair, I'm not, I'm not the biggest family guy. You know, I've kind of been very independent since I came out to America and I continue to be. But I think...

Dom Okus (51:05)
us.

Toby (51:31)
I'll be honest, and this can sound really cringey, but I just knew it's where I was meant to be. Like, it's just where I'm meant to be. There's just, I'm not, I'm not supposed to be in England. I know I'm not. And look, like I was telling you, felt like I had some good opportunities to stay in England. know, Harry got offered me a new deal. I had some other opportunities to stay, but it was never about anything else other than my happiness and my Mrs. Happiness. And, you know, I obviously want to continue my career and go as high as I can in America and go as far as I can, you know, and I'll do that.

but I also wanted to make sure my life outside of football was right as well as the football itself. that was, yeah. ⁓

Dom Okus (52:11)
Yeah, I really respect that. I really

respect that, you know, because I think as a footballer, you're often chasing like the shiny thing, right? Like what's the biggest club I can play for so I can be like, play in the champ or I play in League One or I play for this team or I earn this much or earn that much. But for you to say, you know what, football is really important to me, but my life is also really important to me. And like, how can I make the two things work? And I really respect that. I think not many people have that view.

I actually think what you've done is really smart because it's longevity. Football is only a small portion of your life and you're trying to set yourself up for the long haul. So I really respect it and it just shows your mindset as well. You don't really care what people think. Because I'm sure there some people who like, why would you do that? Why would you move? I'm sure you've had all these negative 90s who... It's not their life, so leave me alone. But I really respect you just being like, yeah, this is what I want to do for my life, so I'm going to do it.

Toby (52:45)
Right.

Nah.

Yeah, Yeah.

Exactly, exactly.

Yeah, I think I do appreciate that. And I think it's nice to obviously hear that you understand. And I'm sure people do, but I have a, you know, why have you done that? It's such a bad, disincentive career, but people don't know that, you know, six days a week in England, I was miserable, hating, hating being England because that's just not where I'm supposed to be. I'm there on my own. My missus in the other side of the world, you know, a lot of my friends are over here, you know, it's, it's not as, as, what it seems like on the surface, obviously.

Dom Okus (53:16)
Yes.

Toby (53:35)
playing on a Saturday and training, whatever, like I was saying, I was grateful for it. never took it for granted, but at the end of the day, whenever I wasn't playing football, I was miserable. So to me, that doesn't add up to a happy life. So, and I do also think, and you'll agree with me on this, is people think, oh, he's gone to America, that's his career done. It's not, because all football here are doing is growing and growing and growing, getting bigger and bigger and bigger. There's teams, there's money, there's...

There's big players coming over here. There's this and that, whatever level it is, whether that's USL1, whether that's championship, whether that's MLS, there's a new league coming. It's growing and growing and growing. And for me, I think it's the best place to be because, like I say, not only am I the happiest I've ever been outside of football, but I think when you're the happiest you've ever been outside of football, that reflects in your performances and the way you are every day. So I personally think it's the best decision for my career to do this now anyway.

Dom Okus (54:33)
I I agree, I agree. And it sets you up even like long term, right? Like if you still want to be involved in football, like you say, it's really growing in America. So like if you wanted to have coaching opportunities and stuff like being here right now with the World Cup next year, like it's good timing. It's really, really, really good timing. So yeah, what is on that note? Like what does the future look like? Have you thought about what you might do post-playing or you're still relatively early in your career, so you're just focused on playing right now?

Toby (54:33)
You

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

I think I'm probably at a point like, yeah, I've only been approaching when I was 24, but I would like to play it around the 35 mark. would, and I think I can do that, but to take care of my body, think the facilities and the opportunities you get over here to do stuff like that are at another level compared to England. So I think it's a lot easier, not easier, not the words I'm looking for. It's a lot...

There's a lot more opportunity for you to play for longer periods of time, to a higher age, whatever the word I'm looking for, 35, 36, 37, because you've got the opportunity to take care of your body. But look, I mean, I've always, and I said this the other day to one of the guys, I've really got a passion. I want to coach in college. I don't know why it is, I just think...

because I've done it and I've seen the transition of how you can develop from boys to men just through the college situation. I would love to have the opportunity to be in that position that my coach once was at Chihuahua to have that kind of figure where you help boys grow up and you help boys become men on the field and off the field. So that's something I want to do. And look, I'm going to stay in football because I'll be honest, I'm shit at everything else.

Like I'm not bad at a bit of poker, but apart from that, I'm not going to become a professional

Dom Okus (56:25)
I'm gonna lose.

Toby (56:27)
poker player. So, yeah, I think, I think definitely, definitely staying in the game coaching and obviously whatever way I get to be in a college coach, whether that's going through club or whatever. I don't know if I'd want to coach professionally, I'll be honest. Like I don't know if I want to be a professional coach. Now don't quote me on that because I don't know, but I would, would definitely, my aim is I would love to become a college coach. And I think that.

Dom Okus (56:48)
Yeah, of course.

Toby (56:53)
That is definitely what I want to do post-career that's kind of my aim.

Dom Okus (56:58)
Sick, sick, sick. Well, I think that's a great place for us to kind of stop. Now, I do have a segment that we have on this show. It's quick fire, it's called extra time, where I'm gonna ask you four questions. The four questions are, first, who is the best player you've played with?

Toby (57:25)
Kazima Alagueby came on loan from Southampton. He's now playing for Stad Rennes, I think, in League A. He was absolute disgrace. came on loan. was like, 18, 19. Just first session gaffer goes right. Kazim, 20 reps on the left side, 20 reps on the right side, 1 v 1. Just chopped me up for 20 reps straight. Ridiculous player. Ridiculous player. yeah, he's a joke. I mean, like I said, he's playing League A now.

Dom Okus (57:27)
Okay, why?

Okay.

Yeah.

sick

Toby (57:55)
Yeah, unbelievable.

Dom Okus (57:57)
Sick. Sick. All right, who's the best player you've played against?

Toby (58:00)
I'm gonna have to go Mano Solomon considering he chopped me up for 81 minutes at Elm Road. But he was, I got told to put him on his left. He was putting him across just as good with his left as was with his right. But yeah, I'd say Mano Solomon or that Largi Ramazzani who plays for Leeds as well, because they were kind of both on my side. But one of them two, I'll go with Solomon because it's on video that he chopped me up.

Dom Okus (58:03)
I'll take it.

No.

Yeah, yeah.

Right.

Yeah. Alright, this is the one that trips everyone up. If you had to go on a night out with three teammates, past or present, who would you pick and why?

Toby (58:35)
⁓ I would pick.

I'll pick James Bellshaw from Harrogate Town, goalkeeper. Really close with him. Did a lot of stuff off the pitch with him. Good guy, helped me a lot. I would go with...

Dom Okus (58:47)
Okay. Okay.

Toby (58:58)
I go with Luke Biasi from Pittsburgh, that's who I lived with. There's those, have me, Markie Bar and Nate Dyson, that's a really close there, but I lived with Luke in the same apartment. So if I had to pick one, if I could pick all three, I'd pick all three, but it'd probably be Luke, cause I was living with him. And I would also go with, well, know, I'll you what, we'll go Mitchell Levi Lewis from Chihuahua. I was going, no, no, no.

Dom Okus (59:21)
I was gonna say, if you aren't gonna pick Mitch, he's gonna be human.

Toby (59:24)
I was

just thinking if it was pro level or not, but yeah, it'd be Mitch and he'll, Mitch is actually gonna be my best man at my wedding as well. So that's a huge one.

Dom Okus (59:28)
Yeah... Yeah...

Amazing, amazing,

amazing, amazing. Sick, sick, sick, sick. And then to wrap us up on a wholesome note, what's your biggest achievement on the pitch so far?

Toby (59:44)
⁓ I'd say my biggest moment in my career was the game at Elenroa in the FA Cup. That was kind of a big thing for me. But no, think making your professional debut is a huge thing. A lot of people strive to do that and I think it's not easy to do and think getting the chance to do that was something special that I remember forever, obviously.

Dom Okus (1:00:10)
For sure, for sure, for sure. Cool, well that wraps us up. Obviously Jam is not here, I usually click it to Jam who closes us out after extra time. But I guess you just have me. So if you've made it this far, please like, comment and subscribe. I wanna give a big thank you to my boy Toby. I only messaged him a couple of days ago to come on and he said absolutely no problem. So thank you for that.

I'll definitely have to come down to a game or you'll have to come down to Austin to see me, you know, working on the DJ tables. 100%, 100%. But for the listeners, thank you so much for listening. That's been the Backstik pod. I've been your boy Domokis and I'll see you again soon. Peace.

Toby (1:00:38)
I'm gonna have to do that. I was speaking to Matt Bentley after the game the other day. I we'll all have to link up there with you on as well. So yeah.